auto killed from dalnet

[Laplace]

Anyone having the same issue connecting to dalnet?

(autokilled: [AKILL] FDCServers clients are no longer welcome on DALnet due to the high level of abuse. Contact abuse@fdcservers.net for more assistance.)

Looks like it is about time to move away from IRC as this issue is among FDCServers and DALnet and the abuser.

We all suffer due to some inconsiderate act by the abusers, whoever they are.

It appears that DALnet is saying it applies to all FDCServers clients or we could say all FDC IP range.

[JFOC]

Oh My god i got this report too from my client

[AKILL ID:1110429603K-a] FDCServers clients are no longer welcome on DALnet due to the high level of abuse. Contact abuse@fdcservers.net for more assistance. (2005/03/10 12.40)

[ChronoCross]

well that's kinda funny. sall of psy's work for peering downthe drain. well not suprising seeing as how many spam bots/dos bos are on FDC's network. the infinate ips's that FDC gives out doesn't help either. perhaps they should rethink thei ip policy as well.

[jalmenaram]

What happend with DALnet i recieved akill from fdcservers can u explain this
[autokilled: [AKILL ID:1110429593K-a] FDCServers clients are no longer
welcome on DALnet due to the high level of abuse. Contact
abuse@fdcservers.net for more assistance.]
Can fdcservers maybe explain what is the problems with DALnet please. I never recieved problem with DALnet, maybe fdcservers need give this explain to all customer of this company

Jose Almenara

[psyxakias]

Hello everyone,

First of all, I have to tell you that my opinion is that the AKILL is DALnet's fault and not FDCservers'. It has nothing to do with how the IP policies that FDCservers has.

A few months ago, more and more people were having issues as DALnet started applying some really strict connection limitations to C Classes. These limitations had several negative effects like your server couldn't have more than X nicknames on DALnet and sometimes X was smaller than the number of IPs you are given. Imagine how hard (sometimes totally impossible) it was for some people to connect in DALnet, especially if there were other businesses established on DALnet at the same C class.

As it was getting worse every day that was passing, SharkTECH (as a hosting provider concentrated mostly to IRC businesses) contacted DALnet in order to see what can be done about this. DALnet admins were pretty cooperative and explained us that in order to prevent this, we have to peer to their IX network which has no limitations but they will expect us to handle reports. However, they seemed to have some serious concerns about how FDCservers was handling abuses until then and we decided to take the responsibility of SharkTECH handling the abuses using dalnetabuse@fdcservers.net so whenever they notice an abuse to inform us in order to keep them satisfied.

At first, everything was going absolutely fine. Once we were receiving a report for something that broke DALnet rules (ie more than 4 nicknames per idents/server), we were immediatelly sending an e-mail to the client including the logs in order for them to have the ability to take action (if they want) to prevent an akill from DALnet to their own server's IPs. Clients were replying back with their actions and everything was running smoothly.

However, DALnet started informing us that they had removed (akilled) some IP blocks from the network without giving us *any* evidences except the ip range. Fruitloop@DALnet (the person who was sending the reports) informed us that they cannot provide us *any* kind of logs because they're as confidential as credit card numbers are and specifically said "the analogy here to this is - would you give me access to your clients credit card information? Of course not, some things MUST stay confidential". A few days after this incident, they suddenly dropped us from the IX network with the excuse that we didn't handle abuses properly. Then after long conversations, we succeed to find a medium solution with DALnet in order for us to handle abuses, *even* if DALnet don't provide us any logs after they assured us that we'll be reconnected back to IX.

Although we continued dealing abuses, IX wasn't activated yet but they kept saying that if we continue cooperating, it will be re-activated. Then Fruitloop@DALnet informed us that there will be another person also who will start contacting us because she cannot handle it alone. The first email that this person sent us was about a client's domain, *not* because it performed an abuse BUT because he was suspecting it may perform *future* abuses because it had a) low TTL values, b) was using DNS round-robin (single host A records pointing to multiple IPs) and he claimed that some action must be taken against it to prevent *future* abuses (!). As that was insane, we couldn't start annoying customers for 'future' abuses and we were told that we won't get IX connectivity back again so we explained them that the only reason that we were consuming our time daily was for to obtain IX connectivity again, otherwise there was no point of us to continue dealing these issues.

Next day (today), they performed an AKILL to all FDC blocks and when my employer contacted FruitLoop, she informed him (as she had done again in past) that she cannot the reason is confidential and she'll have to discuss it directly with FDCservers only.

After all these, I'm asking you the following:
1) How can someone deal an abuse WITHOUT any kind of evidences/logs? Imagine someone come and tell you: "We detected some serious abuses to your IP: 1.2.3.4 but we cannot give you any kind of logs/evidences because they're confidential"? Which serious ISP would accept this, to start blaming customers without any kind of logs? Not to mention that they compared abuse logs almost the same as credit card numbers.

2) Why should someone deal *future* abuses that may occur from clients' domains, just because they have low TTL values and/or use DNS round-robin? That's insane! I would understand their concern to report an abusive domain (and even to AKILL the domain if needed), but how did they expect us to accept predictions about abuses?

I'm truly disappointed of DALnet's attitude on this issue and I have to assure you that we did everything possible to prevent this from happening, while me and my employer consumed hours of dealing these reports and long conversations with admins that no other ISP would. We even had DALnet reports on our daily tasks. I hope you understand that we (SharkTECH) wanted as all of you to keep connectivity to DALnet as we are hosting hundred servers on FDCservers' datacenter and some of our clients need DALnet connectivity, but looks like DALnet didn't really want this and simply found an excuse to drop all FDCservers IPs.

My personal opinion is that this would happen soon or later, even if we hadn't get involved because I saw how negative that admin was reacting even by seeing FDC's name. I remember a sharktech client that forwarded me a log a while ago that between others I noticed how ironically Fruitloop reacted when she saw where client's IP comes from: "Oh nice, FDC servers". Of course, someone would easily ask why would they want FDC/SharkTECH out, why would they hate us? Unfortunately I don't have this answer, I don't even know if it's something personal to FDCservers/SharkTECH or not. I wonder if it's related with their slogan that kept repeating "we offer a free service", which maybe actually means that they don't like people like us that charge clients for hosting.

At last, I wish everyone best luck with this incident and I sincerely apologize if you believe that our attempt to improve DALnet connectivity, may actually made it worse.

Thank you.

[jalmenaram]

Hi psyxakias thanks by this. But its possible fdc or sharktech removed this akill from DALnet. Maybe need talk with fruitloop and check all the server. I never incur in this problem. I dont understand this akill yet maybe admin of fdc need talk with DALnet or fruitloop and resolved this, and all i need talk with u just only.

Regards

Jose Almenara

[psyxakias]

jalmenaram, FDCservers' administrators may contact DALnet if they wish to, but I don't think that's the problem. The real problem is that DALnet is totally screwing businesses with absolutely no logical reason. From a 100.000+ users network, they currently have just ~30.000 users and with such behavior, I wouldn't be suprised to see them in <1000 users category (once again).

It's their IRC network, they have the right to drop anyone they want, they have the right to set any rules they want... let them be :hey:

PS: Although it's obvious that my posts are kinda negative for DALnet after my bad experience with DALnet administrators, my primary point was to just let the people of what has happened. If FDCservers ever succeeds to negotiate with DALnet, it will be a real miracle. Take care people.

[rabb1d]

You know what..
Thats probably the same bull crap mentality that got dal.net DDoS attacked to near death the first time. I bet that will happen again, and dal.net will be an empty wasteland after this fiasco.

I think it's nothing short of asinine the way dal.net opers discriminate against certain people and hosts. Yes it is thier network, and they can do what they want with it, but ummm what good is being an oper when all that will be left is the opers themselves because all the users get tired of the servers being ddosed and lagged severely, or the immoral "I am G0D Fear ME" attitude they take towards certain hosts / people.

It's thier network true, but it IS setup for public "free" use, and if they continue to make things uncomfortable for the public to use the service I dont think they'll be around much longer, at least not in the capacity they once had. Might see them shrink down to a 10,000 user network if that much.

My personal opinion is dalnet has gone the way of the kiddie run network and have begun once again to cut thier own throats as far as thier user count / usability is concerned.

I havent made any threats or anything nor do I plan to, but I can say I do see a repeating trend. This has been going on for a long time. Anyone remember the DAL.net oper wars? :jumpgrin: yea im an old fart whos been around longer than that even. DAL opers spent a whole summer killing and akilling etc... eachother for what ever reasons they felt like. Its the same thing different flavor in my opinion.

:hey: See ya later DAL.net

[psyxakias]

After all is said and done. We feel we have done everything we could replying to DALnet's abuse reports in best timely manner. We did not neglect any abuse we were provided by DALnet. If you have any suggestions on how to resolve this that we haven't tried we are open to suggestions.

[rabb1d]

I doubt there is much you can do.
They are nothing short of bone heads.
#1) DAL.net oper wars
--- What decent maturely run IRC network allows its opers to go around killing eachother off the network (/kill) with no recourse. That went on for a good 6 months. Even though it was some years ago

#2) Opers bullying people around
--- What started the attack against DAL that shreded them to peices from what I heard was due to a few cocky DAL opers antagonizing, and harassing its users. I think the same attitude that spawned "Oh gee, FDC IPs" is the same attitude that started that big heady DDoS on dal no doubt in my mind about that. (also reminds me of the immaturity in dal management in point one)

#3) Opers banning entire class C blocks with little to no regard to agreements or due process
--- Again this is just more of the same as points 1 and 2. Lack of maturity and understanding and the ability to stick to an agreement. I have an rr.com cable modem and I cant get on dal.net from either shell nor my home connection because just by connecting there they say I match some type of trojan, which is silly.

Bottom line, you cant reason with a two year old. Why?
They don't know how to speak themselves yet, and they sure as heck cant listen longer than 2 seconds because the attention span is so short. So most anything agreed upon goes in one ear and out the other, just as they clearly demonstrated for us all. Why do I reference them to 2 year olds?
See points 1, 2, and 3 of course its all my opinion, and what I think.

When DAL is no longer existing I'll be laffing pretty hard at all of this BS dalnet has decided to start playing.

The dalnet issues arent anyone's fault. Anyone who blames FDC or sharktech is plain silly, uneducated and just as immature and the dalnet administration that cant keep a promise, or stick to any agreed upon methods to resolve problems. This is all my opinion, and I know psyxakias is lookin for more options / methods to get the issue with dalnet resolved. I just don't see a way. I remember how big a pain in the butt it was to get as far as you did psyxakias. You all went out of your way to make them happy enough to give you access to thier network and they pull this crap....... :nuts:
The world is full of asshats and I'm surrounded by them :help:
:thankyou: for trying man. Dal needs to follow thier own :rulez: but has never and probably never will :cant: :@
If anyone uses dal :ms: <--- do that and stop using dalnet. Very simple way to fix that problem. Move your channels to better more maturely run networks.